• Roulette Forum
  • Craps Forum
  • TwentyOne Forum
Welcome to RouletteForum.com
Notice: 5/8/2017 -- RouletteForum.com is closed to new posting and will remain in read-only mode for 30 days. If you wish to preserve any of your posts, do so soon.
   
1 of 5
1
VB - What is VB and why does it work?
Posted: 18 April 2011 10:35 AM   [ Ignore ]
VB Meister
Sr. Member
Total Posts:  1072
Joined  2010-04-08
RankRankRankRank




For those who do not know. VB stands for ‘Visual Ballistics’

Visual Ballistics is a part of advantage play (AP) and uses physics and calculations to determine where the ball will ultimately enter the rotor. Add for scatter and you are there.

There are a couple of aspects to VB.

1) Level wheels are mostly out. Only a few techniques exist for playing level wheels, of which I know one. Although there is a longterm advantage using this method the advantage for me is too small and I avoid genuine level wheels. Having said that, there are not that many level wheels around. Yes it is true that there are not that many wheels with 1 dominant drop around either. But the same goes for there are just as few wheels hitting all vertical diamonds equally over however big a sample you would study.

2) we need a dominant drop. Ths is true for vb players. (Forget about level wheels) We need a wheel that produces dominant drops.
  What is a dominant drop exactly? Usually caused by slight tilt on the wheel or a defective warped track. That is where the ball leaves the track and enters the rotor. Because of the vertical deflectors (4 off on most wheels) a combination of where the ball leaves the rim and then starts finding it’s way to the rotor and mostly hitting one of those deflectors in it’s path. The track is always at the same angle. The ball looses against gravity at the same velocity every spin.
If we have a dominant drop or a point where the ball leaves the rim every spin then we have the following constants. (i) The ball leaves the track at the same place. (ii) the ball leaves the rim at the same speed (looses against gravity) (iii) the angle of the track is a constant. If you have this the same deflector will most probably hit 7/10 times.

3) Wheel speed - Ok, this is the first calculation we need to look at. Why? Well, simple. We know where the ball will drop onto the rotor (dminant drop). What we now have to know is what numbers on the ring will be under that point when it happens. So first step would be to time the rotor. (I’m sorry but I’m not going in detail here)

4) Ball speed - After the wheel has been taken care of we look at ball speed. We wait for a specific point in time (same point in every spin) where we would immediately look at our dominant drop (deflector) and what numbers are under the deflector at that time.
So the “point in time” is a constant in every spin. The reference deflector is a constant obviously. Now we just need to adjust for different wheel speeds. (point 3)

5) Scatter analysis - I’m not going to explain how this is done properly. In short though, we track and look at the different scatter patterns. So if we take the dominant deflector and everytime the ball hits that deflector we look at the number under that deflector and then where it ends up. That is our scatter. So let’s say 10 spins clockwise we have the following scatter. 3..3..11..7…18….4…5…..15…..3…...12 Would you add all up and devide by 10? No… you won’t because you will get 8.1 which is 8 pocket scatter. And that is wrong. Look at 3.4.5 pockets scatter. 3 pockets featured 3 times. 4 once and 5 once. So what I"m saying is you should plot this on a graph and look at the high peaks on the graph. Now imagine playing a 2 or 3 pin game and looking at scatter at all the deflectors.


There are several visual ballistics techniques.

Lawrence Scott’s crossover patterns works well but are for faster rotors. Slower rotors won’t allow the 2x pattern to form before nmb or at all for that matter. There are trifactor reference point crossovers that can be used. There is my own ball to wheel relation method I sometimes use. There are other methods as well.

So in short that is what vb is.

It is the only way to get an advantage over the house. (except off course for Bias wheels)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 August 2011 06:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
roulettedealer
Sr. Member
Total Posts:  296
Joined  2011-08-05
RankRankRankRank




This is Brian. Not trying to start a quarrel, but I have to ask you a question. A while back, how come you attacked me saying that you basically felt I was lying about being an genuine advantage player, questioning the methods I claimed to use…only to post today the exact method which I described to you? I dont get it. This morning I replied to you question about how I find the drop point, and account for ball scatter, and then you posted nearly the same thing…but why did you say earlier that the way I claimed to count the ball and wheel speeds sounded bogus? Maybe im confused, that was you, right? Anyways, its cool, just wondering.—-Brian

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 September 2011 03:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
VB Meister
Sr. Member
Total Posts:  1072
Joined  2010-04-08
RankRankRankRank




roulettedealer - 18 August 2011 06:36 PM

This is Brian. Not trying to start a quarrel, but I have to ask you a question. A while back, how come you attacked me saying that you basically felt I was lying about being an genuine advantage player, questioning the methods I claimed to use…only to post today the exact method which I described to you? I dont get it. This morning I replied to you question about how I find the drop point, and account for ball scatter, and then you posted nearly the same thing…but why did you say earlier that the way I claimed to count the ball and wheel speeds sounded bogus? Maybe im confused, that was you, right? Anyways, its cool, just wondering.—-Brian

Hi Brian,

I thought I did reply to your post way back but seemingly I didn’t. Please note that the date on my post was on the 18th of April and not 18th of August. I think you missed that. No harm done though.

VB

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 September 2011 04:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
roulettedealer
Sr. Member
Total Posts:  296
Joined  2011-08-05
RankRankRankRank




Hey there, this is Brian. You did reply to my post a while back, this new one must be a mistake of some sort. I posted that a long time ago. Ultimately, Ive come to the conclusion that our methods are probably more similar than we once thought. Sometimes when trying to post something genuine, you get so used to being attacked by other members that you have your defenses up when you probably shouldnt.—-Brian

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 September 2011 10:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
VB Meister
Sr. Member
Total Posts:  1072
Joined  2010-04-08
RankRankRankRank




roulettedealer - 26 September 2011 04:49 AM

Hey there, this is Brian. You did reply to my post a while back, this new one must be a mistake of some sort. I posted that a long time ago. Ultimately, Ive come to the conclusion that our methods are probably more similar than we once thought. Sometimes when trying to post something genuine, you get so used to being attacked by other members that you have your defenses up when you probably shouldnt.—-Brian

Yes, at the end of the day vb techniques all boils down to pretty much the same thing. It’s just tweaks here and there that makes it more individual I guess.

Regards
VB

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 January 2012 01:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
rusa71
Jr. Member
Total Posts:  40
Joined  2011-12-25
RankRank




VB Meister - 18 April 2011 10:35 AM

4) Ball speed - After the wheel has been taken care of we look at ball speed. We wait for a specific point in time (same point in every spin) where we would immediately look at our dominant drop (deflector) and what numbers are under the deflector at that time.
So the “point in time” is a constant in every spin. The reference deflector is a constant obviously. Now we just need to adjust for different wheel speeds. (point 3)

I want to ask about “point in time”.As I understand,this point should be constant from the end of spin but not from the beginning?For example,our “point in time” is fifth ball revolution from the end.If so,how can we predict this exact revolution?Thanks

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 January 2012 05:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
VB Meister
Sr. Member
Total Posts:  1072
Joined  2010-04-08
RankRankRankRank




rusa71 - 16 January 2012 01:26 PM
VB Meister - 18 April 2011 10:35 AM

4) Ball speed - After the wheel has been taken care of we look at ball speed. We wait for a specific point in time (same point in every spin) where we would immediately look at our dominant drop (deflector) and what numbers are under the deflector at that time.
So the “point in time” is a constant in every spin. The reference deflector is a constant obviously. Now we just need to adjust for different wheel speeds. (point 3)

I want to ask about “point in time”.As I understand,this point should be constant from the end of spin but not from the beginning?For example,our “point in time” is fifth ball revolution from the end.If so,how can we predict this exact revolution?Thanks

Point in time is from the end of the spin as you rightly pointed out. There are various ways to determine this. One could use visual confirmation. If you look at your ref deflector. Everytime the ball passes by, look at the number under it. You will see yhat the gap between the numbers are small and that they increase slightly every rotation. Suddenly you will see a noticably large gap. This is when the ball reaches it’s knee point. This will always be the same rev away from the drop. another way works the same as a timing light. Imagine you set the timing light to flash every second. If you sbine it on the wheel and the ball is faster than the 1 sec intervals it will appear as if the ball is slowly creeping forward. When the ball takes slows to a second per rev, it will appear it is standing still on the wheel in consequtive revs.

So. If you looked at the ball as it rotates and you count in 1 sec intervals (on every second, look where the ball is on the wheel). It will move forward from point to point. Now as the ball decelerates to taking 1 sec per rev, as you count in 1 sec intervals, the ball should be exactly in the same place on two consequtive counts. Again, this will always be the same distance away from the drop. If you get a metronome watch, you could set it to 1.1 sec for istanve to get even a later rev. The later the rev the more accurate. Off course nmb and placing bets have to be accounted for. Hope that makes sense. Email me if you need more guidance.

Regards
Vb

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 January 2012 05:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
roulettedealer
Sr. Member
Total Posts:  296
Joined  2011-08-05
RankRankRankRank




Identifiying one paticular revolution for each spin is one way to do it, but depending on the speed of the ball and the wheel, you could run out of time to bet. Try using comparables…as I mentioned in my post on how to calculate ball drop. Visually, you will eventually be able to spot the deceleration rate of the ball and the ideal revolution using your reference deflector, even without using a timing device or a count of any sort…you can also go on sound, or a combination of the two…but the casino is usually too noisy for this.
  If you use data previously collected, you can compare the results of past spins to the conditions of future spins and find a connection in the results. Some methods work well for some wheels, while others work better on different wheels…you have to experiment a bit.
  Try this: For practice purposes, try using an online wheel demo…such as the jafco wheel on youtube..but any will work. Get a stop watch (concealed, of coarse) and time a specific ball revolution….use a deflector as your reference point for for starting and stoping the watch. Now, write this exact time down. Next, rewind the tape, and look at the same spin again….this time, clock the wheel speed using the same deflector as your reference point. Write this time down next to the ball time. Remember to use the same point in time in the spin to clock the ball each time you do it. For example…as soon as the ball passes by your ref. deflector on the very first rotation, start the stop watch. Now, give the ball time to decelerate a bit, lets say 6 rotations just for practice purposes….remember which number was beneath the reference point when the ball passes by it for the first time, and you began your timing. This will be a reference number for you. Now, go back and time the wheel speed for the same spin….this can be done for one single revolution of the wheel. Write this number down next to your ball time. Finally, record the exact number the ball drops into when it falls, and before it scatters. Now how far in the direction of the ball spin is this drop point from your original reference number? Note this. Your list should look something like this: ball=1.28, wheel=2.70 = + 12. What this means is that when the wheel is traveling at 2.70 per rotation, and the ball is traveling at 1.28 from the start of the spin to its 6th rotation past the ref. point….which ever number was beneath the ref. point when the ball first passed beneath it, the ball will drop 12 numbers past this point…in the direction of the ball spin. This is the life of this paticular spin….all the factors affecting the outcome of this spin were lined up in a paticular way, and they yeilded these results…You can now use this data in the future. If you were to identify the same conditions of the ball and wheel speed pairings…you know that the ball will drop 12 pockets past your reference number. This works every time….you need only calculate ball scatter at this point.
  I do not use this method for live wheels, though it can be used. I do use it for the automated wheel I play on, however, and with great success. Practicing this method and perfecting it will yeild great returns. Many find such a method too complicated, but it really is very simple once you get the hang of it, and nothing is more accurate…..trust me. This is no generalization based on a generic calculation, this is exact parameters yeilding exact results….the only variable is the ball scatter. Try it out online first and see for yourself. Youll be convinced. If you decide to use a method similar to this, I would suggest bringing in a partner or two, and one of you timing the wheel, and one the ball, and working out a method of communication and coordinated betting. This is the way casino games have best been beaten in the past….because team play illudes the casino, and it makes the whole process much, much simpler. Good luck.—-Brian

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 January 2012 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
tiki101
Sr. Member
Total Posts:  233
Joined  2010-10-24
RankRankRankRank




Hi VB

Just a quick question re VB.  We trial say 3,700 spins on several wheels in the quest for a biased wheel.

The ‘law of averages’ tells us that because of this relatively large number of spins that a level wheel should leave us with roughly 100 of all 37 numbers at the end of our experiment.

A biased wheel would obviously have more numbers being hit on a certain sector of the wheel.  What sort of ‘abnormal’ percentages should we be looking at after 3,700 spins that would show an obvious wheel bias and not just the ‘law of averages’ variation. 

Good to see you back mate. (did WE win??)

Cheers
Dave

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 January 2012 08:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
roulettedealer
Sr. Member
Total Posts:  296
Joined  2011-08-05
RankRankRankRank




Hey there, I know this is a question for VB, but I have to give a little input on the subject. People are always talking about 3700 spins to find wheel bias, and all this stuff…but I never bought into that…assuming that the conditions surrounding each spin were completely random, then yes….this would be a good analysis for finding any bias..however, on a live dealer wheel, this isnt the case. You have to factor in dealer signature and launch point, as well as things like ball changes and varying wheel speeds. Yes, you are simply looking for a deviation after a long series of spins, but spin data is affected by more than just wheel bias, it is directly affected by DS.
  Lest say, for example, that I was dealing on a wheel for 3700 spins…it would never happen, but lets just imagine for a moment. Now, I could keep the ball hitting the same zones of the wheel for the majority or that time, simply by controlling wheel and ball speeds, and my launch point..because of this, a spin analysis would most likely show that the wheel is biased in the sector that I was targeting….but this isnt so. Lets say now that another dealer….or rather a string of dealers were to rotate through the same wheel for 3700 spins…..the data would be completely different. I dont believe that you can accuarately measure bias using a mass quantity of spins for this reason….maybe by analyzing how the ball reacts when it scatters over various sectors of the wheel…then over a large number of spins, you may notice a specific scatter pattern over a certain sector of numbers, independant of wheel speed….thats possible…but I beleive the 3700 spin approach is flawed….just my opinion though.—-Brian

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 January 2012 02:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
VB Meister
Sr. Member
Total Posts:  1072
Joined  2010-04-08
RankRankRankRank




roulettedealer - 16 January 2012 08:06 PM

Hey there, I know this is a question for VB, but I have to give a little input on the subject. People are always talking about 3700 spins to find wheel bias, and all this stuff…but I never bought into that…assuming that the conditions surrounding each spin were completely random, then yes….this would be a good analysis for finding any bias..however, on a live dealer wheel, this isnt the case. You have to factor in dealer signature and launch point, as well as things like ball changes and varying wheel speeds. Yes, you are simply looking for a deviation after a long series of spins, but spin data is affected by more than just wheel bias, it is directly affected by DS.
  Lest say, for example, that I was dealing on a wheel for 3700 spins…it would never happen, but lets just imagine for a moment. Now, I could keep the ball hitting the same zones of the wheel for the majority or that time, simply by controlling wheel and ball speeds, and my launch point..because of this, a spin analysis would most likely show that the wheel is biased in the sector that I was targeting….but this isnt so. Lets say now that another dealer….or rather a string of dealers were to rotate through the same wheel for 3700 spins…..the data would be completely different. I dont believe that you can accuarately measure bias using a mass quantity of spins for this reason….maybe by analyzing how the ball reacts when it scatters over various sectors of the wheel…then over a large number of spins, you may notice a specific scatter pattern over a certain sector of numbers, independant of wheel speed….thats possible…but I beleive the 3700 spin approach is flawed….just my opinion though.—-Brian

Guys, if a wheel is truly bias it means that there are defects on the wheel. This means that certain pockets will be bias and others will be negative bias. This means certain numbers will donate hits to other numbers. Even if you can hit sectors, the ball will end up more in the bias pockets than in the other numbers and less in the negative bias numbers. I will give more detail in a bit. Need to step out for a minute.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 January 2012 02:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
roulettedealer
Sr. Member
Total Posts:  296
Joined  2011-08-05
RankRankRankRank




I agree with that, but the results of a wheel analysis intended to detect bias numbers will still be flawed as the spins themselves can be influenced to avoid certain areas of the wheel where there may or may not be biased numbers. There may be a guy who does a thorough wheel analysis and finds that a paticular wheel displays only a couple of strong biased numbers, and another wheel may appear to be slightly better, causing him to choose one wheel over the other….however, this information may or may not be accurate…we dont know how many of the spins which he used in his analysis had strong dealer influence. Not that it is something which would be likely to happen, but it is possible….which makes the process flawed…in my opinion. The wheel he passes up may have more biased numbers, but he couldnt tell that simply by performing an analysis based solely on spin volume.
  Now, if someone were to do an analysis on individual sectors of the wheel…which granted, would take forever…but if they did, then I believe it would be much more accurate, as they could ensure that every sector of the wheel had a fair analysis, and not based upon spin volume, but rather ball activity within the various sectors….and between the numbers within them. Not only would this be beneficiary to the guy who only wants to bet on biased numbers…..but extremely so to the wheel clocker, as he now knows not only where the ball is likely to land…but which numbers within that landing zone are biased….he can now structure his bets accordingly.—-Brian

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 January 2012 03:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
VB Meister
Sr. Member
Total Posts:  1072
Joined  2010-04-08
RankRankRankRank




roulettedealer - 17 January 2012 02:51 AM

I agree with that, but the results of a wheel analysis intended to detect bias numbers will still be flawed as the spins themselves can be influenced to avoid certain areas of the wheel where there may or may not be biased numbers. There may be a guy who does a thorough wheel analysis and finds that a paticular wheel displays only a couple of strong biased numbers, and another wheel may appear to be slightly better, causing him to choose one wheel over the other….however, this information may or may not be accurate…we dont know how many of the spins which he used in his analysis had strong dealer influence. Not that it is something which would be likely to happen, but it is possible….which makes the process flawed…in my opinion. The wheel he passes up may have more biased numbers, but he couldnt tell that simply by performing an analysis based solely on spin volume.
  Now, if someone were to do an analysis on individual sectors of the wheel…which granted, would take forever…but if they did, then I believe it would be much more accurate, as they could ensure that every sector of the wheel had a fair analysis, and not based upon spin volume, but rather ball activity within the various sectors….and between the numbers within them. Not only would this be beneficiary to the guy who only wants to bet on biased numbers…..but extremely so to the wheel clocker, as he now knows not only where the ball is likely to land…but which numbers within that landing zone are biased….he can now structure his bets accordingly.—-Brian

Dealers won’t know which numbers are bias. You get different bias. You might get a sector that is bias or you might have individual numbers that are bias. In most cases if it’s individual numbers you might have say 3 numbers which are bias. Usually their adjacent numbers will be negative bias. Or appear so. Sometimes there are nothing wrong with a pocket yet it is bias because of adjacent pockets that are negative bias and donates to this number.

The reason why I say dealers do not know if a pocket is bias is because if a pocket has an STD of 3 it is hardly noticable. One dealer might spin two sets of 37 spins and that bias pocket might not appear but then it will catch up and appear heavily in the next 37 spins. On average it will appear 4 x every 37 spins.

As far as hitting certain sectors. Even if you could you cannot prevent the ball from stopping dead when it hits that pocket, or running over the negative bias number because of defects in the pocket. Remember. a negative bias number will also appear but less than 1 STD.

The only way casinos use to counter this and it is very effective is to turn the number ring. So by turning the number ring by only a couple of pockets every month or so, the same pockets still stay bias but the numbers change. So tracking becomes impossible if you are only looking at the number analysis. For the player that only use number analysis I would suggest first and utmost before tracking to look for a mark on the cone of the wheel or on the frets or pockets itself. By finding an identifying mark, if they turn the number ring (although alot of extra work) you could adjust your data taken for the day accordingly. Btw. turning the number ring takes only a couple of minutes.

You also have to take note of which ball is used on the day. Small balls are better. They get trapped in bias numbers more easily. That does not mean that big or medium balls won’t work. The thing is big balls like to run over the frets and are less subseptible to bias effects… or certain bias effects. So tracking has to be kept seperate for different size balls.

By turning the number ring the casino also has a disadvantage. This disadvantage comes in the form of the fact that their software searching for bias and that runs continuously on number analysis, now basically becomes obsolete because of the number ring being turned. Futhermore if more bias pockets appear they cannot pick it up.

Bias play is much larger than people think. There are much more to it than just pocket bias. Even the number ring could be bias (think of spinners) The cone could be too and in alot of instances are. The track itself. Most wheels have defects on the track.

By defects spotting, finding certain bias pockets and playing vb together with it, it becomes a dangerous proposition for the casino.

@ Tiki. If a number has an STD of 3 and up, it is playable. Remember what I wrote about turning number rings though.

Regards
VB

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 January 2012 06:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
rusa71
Jr. Member
Total Posts:  40
Joined  2011-12-25
RankRank




Thank you guys for the answers.Im REALLY appreciate it!I think I have whole puzzle in my head)))Now the matter of practice and practice…and practice again.Many tanks!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 January 2012 06:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
VB Meister
Sr. Member
Total Posts:  1072
Joined  2010-04-08
RankRankRankRank




Hi tiki, sorry,i haven’t answered you yet. Our tour went as expected… We always expect more. But our trip didn’t turn out more than the expected ;/ lol.anyway. Like I said it was par. So, good but we always hope for more hehehe.planning a 2 month trip in March.

Regards
Vb

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 January 2012 12:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
tiki101
Sr. Member
Total Posts:  233
Joined  2010-10-24
RankRankRankRank




VB Meister - 17 January 2012 06:03 PM

Like I said it was par.

Vb

No worries mate. My 2% agents fee just went out the window I suppose….lol…

When you’re checking for a biased wheel…I’m guessing you just hire a few old guys to take down a few thousand numbers for a day or two.  Then do a quick check yourself of another hundred of so (to make sure the old guys weren’t spending all day at the bar and not collecting the right data) before starting the raid.  That about right?

Cheers mate
Dave

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 5
1
 
Online roulette is also very popular in Australia with many of the internet casino brands directly targeting Australians, resulting in a huge choice of roulette sites available to Australians. CasinoReef recommends Ruby Fortune casino as one of the top online roulette casinos available in AUD. For New Zealanders, CasinoKiwi recommends Jackpot city casino as the most popular choice for new Zealanders playing roulette online.